jerk!

You deleted the previous green that was drawn here to draw your own. There are some problems with that. The first is that you lose the history of the node you deleted. (osm.wiki/Keep_the_history)

The other problem is that you have deleted an object that was a member of a relation and you break the relation by doing this. The hole defined a fairway everywhere EXCEPT where the green was. But when you deleted the green, you say that the fairway is EVERYWHERE, including the where you drew the new green. This doesn't make sense because you are saying the grass in the green is also the fairway, which is obviously impossible.

Please do your best to modify objects instead of deleting and replacing them. And if there is a really strong reason to delete them, please make sure you fix the relation that you broke. Thanks!

RE: way/855583732

Hey there jdasmh,

Thanks for the efforts to clean up golf courses. It's much appreciated. There's a problem with this green (and possibly others). You aren't sharing the nodes of each and ever node at the border between the fairway and the green. That creates overlaps (that set off Q/A checks) and gaps between the fairway and green. Please make sure future edits share every single node. Thanks!

Well, it's not just Illinois (or Indiana or Iowa) that is the problem. It's the entire country. I have some rudimentary tools that watch all the changes to golf course features (greens, fairways, water hazards, etc) and if any change is made that violate certain "rules", it shows up a on a report that I look at every day. So when you reduce the nodes in a golf green for instance, that's great and all, but if that green already has errors in it (typically being crossed by a fairway due to historically bad golf course mapping), it shows up on my report and makes extra work for me.

If there is some way we could coordinate to reduce the noise in my nightly reports, it would make my life a lot easier. This could be you giving me enough heads up that I can fix these fairway/green errors before you come along, or it could be you not applying your fixes to golf course objects that have other errors on them. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks.

If I gave you a list of URLS/osm_ids in Illinois to avoid for the next month to give me time to do my clean-up first, would you be able to easily add those to an exception list?

"Culinary" reminded me I'm hungry for some breakfast.

There are a couple of problems with how you "fixed" hole 2 in this change. The first problem is that you are deleting the previous fairway and erasing history by doing so. You should be modifying the node positions instead of just starting from scratch. osm.wiki/Keep_the_history

The second, bigger, point is that you are crossing your fairway and green nodes back and forth, creating an overlap and/or gap between the two. You should be reusing the node at each point. Modern editors should snap to an existing node when you get close enough to them. (Though this wouldn't be an issue if you would modify existing features instead of deleting them.)

Please let me know that you see this comment and understand. I'd be happy to clarify if not.

I think I like what you're doing with these changes, but I'm not 100% sure. :-P

I've of the opinion that many golf course features are drawn with far too many nodes and it looks like you are removing a lot of the nodes, which I'm okay with. Can you tell me more about your methodology?

This is colliding with some of my work this summer around golf courses (not necessarily in a bad way) and I'd like to also learn about your selection methodology and see if you're willing to tweak which areas you plan on working next to quiet things down on my end.

If you're on slack (OpenStreetMap US) or discord and want to discuss there in more real time, I could meet you there instead.

Hi Andrea,

Thanks for the note. As that wiki page points out, there is no agreed upon standard of how big a changeset should be or how many changes should be gathered into a single changeset. I try to walk a fine line and make the changeset area be no larger than a 3-character geohash. I've gotten complaints when I do too many small changes, and so I tweak things and get complaints when I make the area too large. I'll see if I can tweak things a little more, but I have a feeling it will still upset someone.

RE: way/1421596614

Hey there Hunters,

There are a bunch of errors around the chunk of fairway you created (mentioned above). We appreciate the contributions, but want to make sure you are following some common, agreed upon, style of mapping golf courses to save others from having to come behind you and fix errors.

Here are some of the things I've spotted:

* You have fairway areas that overlap each other but are part of the same fairway. These should be a single area, not two (or more).
* Your fairway is (subtly) overlapping the green. Enough to trigger Q/A checks to see if there are any overlaps. Fairways and greens that butt up against each other should have their boundaries drawn by sharing ever node on the boundary. Editors will typically "snap" to those nodes to help you accomplish this.
* The line you drew for the golf course "hole" has a second-to-last node that is extremely close to the hole. That isn't typically how holes are drawn. The wiki at golf=hole might help explain how to draw them better.
* You have the hole tagged with "golf:par", when the correct tag for par is simple "par".

If you could fix these errors now and avoid them in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

RE: node/13064041538

Hi Ronca,

Please be careful when drawing golf course areas that they don't overlap with other existing features. See the node mentioned above, it crosses through a bunker when it should be going around the bunker. The fairway is also drawn through the cartpath, which isn't correct either. If you could take a minute to correct those errors, it would be appreciated. If you have any questions, please let me know.

Hey Corey,

I'm going to try making a video to better explain this error and how it crops up. The short answer is, if you see something like a fairway that doesn't have any tags, don't be tempted to add a "golf=fairway" tag to it if it belongs to a relation. You'll notice that the relation has that tag already and to add a fairway tag to just the one member of the relation (the fairway), it messes up the meaning. Thanks.

RE: way/1421400152

As mentioned previously, fairways and greens (and other golf areas) must not have boundaries that cross over each other.

Please see changeset/169083805

RE: way/1420847505, et al

When drawing golf course areas (i.e. greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways (lines) used to outline those areas must not cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. Take a look at osm.wiki/File:Golf.png for an example of the "Wrong" way to map a fairway and a green along with the right way. There are some cases where a fringe exists around a green and you should draw the fairway outline completely around a green. Other times, the fairway and green butt up against each other. In that case the fairway and green should share the same nodes at the boundary between the two. When drawing these shared nodes, editors like iD (built into openstreetmap.org) will "snap" to an existing node if you get close enough. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be great. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out. Thanks.

(On deeper inspection, I see that you were just removing extraneous dense nodes and you weren't the original created of the crossing of the fairway over the green. So you can ignore the comment above (unless you're interested in cleaning it up anyway).

RE: way/1088041689

When drawing golf course areas (i.e. greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways (lines) used to outline those areas must not cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. Take a look at osm.wiki/File:Golf.png for an example of the "Wrong" way to map a fairway and a green along with the right way. There are some cases where a fringe exists around a green and you should draw the fairway outline completely around a green. Other times, the fairway and green butt up against each other. In that case the fairway and green should share the same nodes at the boundary between the two. When drawing these shared nodes, editors like iD (built into openstreetmap.org) will "snap" to an existing node if you get close enough. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be great. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out. Thanks.

I don't have a good answer for that. It depends on how much you want to be involved. I'm not that familiar with tagging areas that are abandoned and under construction, but do know that some tags exist to indicate that. You should check osm.wiki and see what you can find there. If you don't take care of it yourself, I'm sure someone will redraw it eventually. That's the joy of mapping in an ever-changing world.

Hey Whippy, thanks for responding. I get that things might be in flux while you in the middle of a project. It would be beneficial if you could find another way to indicate progress other than introducing errors into the map though. Maybe a "note" tag or "todo" tag.

Sorry if you other comment was confusing. I come across a lot of these and have made the comment as generic as possible while still trying to get the point across. The comment in this case was specifically because the fairway border cut right through the bunker, and that's not right. I see that you've corrected it now. Thanks for doing that!

Also, you shouldn't be giving a name to a bunker like "Sand Trap". That is redundant with the tag of "golf=bunker". And the nearby green shouldn't be named "#4 Green". If you want to include the hole number on the green, you can do it with a "ref=4" tag, but naming a green shouldn't be done here.

RE: way/1420091425, et al

When drawing golf course areas (such as greens, fairways, bunkers, tees, etc.), please be aware that the ways used to outline those areas can't cross over each other. Fairway outlines shouldn't cross over greens or bunkers or other fairways for example. If you could go back and clean up where you've made this mistake, that would be helpful. But more importantly, if you could stop from doing this in the future, it would be greatly appreciated. If you have any questions about golf course mapping, feel free to reach out.